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Could you implement IsisMarc in a browser? (was: Need your help to keep PHP-OpenIsis alive)


Auteur Message
le: 12. 05. 2005 [13:19]
fgomez@criba.edu.ar
=?Windows-1252?Q?Fernando_J._G=F3mez?
Auteur du fil
Inscrit depuis: 31.12.1969
Interventions: 0
Klaus Ripke wrote:

> I mean, you can do everything you *really need* in a browser,
> and some more, having a Javascript fest,
> but still there are advantages to a GUI.
> Could you implement IsisMarc in a browser?

Well... I've been trying to do something like that for some time. icon_smile.gif

(First, let me mention that I do not intend to contradict Klaus'
observation that "there are advantages to a GUI", nor initiate some
discussion on browser vs GUI. I simply want to use his (rhetorical?)
question as an opportunity to share what I've done, which may have
relevance to this list.)

Some of you probably already know it: Catalis, a web application for
cataloguing using MARC21 (http://inmabb.criba.edu.ar/catalis/).

Although originally developed for IE6, I took the time earlier this year
to make it cross-browser (meaning: IE6 & Mozilla Firefox). The results
of these recent changes --still unfinished-- can be seen if you visit
this URL, using IE6 or Firefox 1.0:

http://catalis.uns.edu.ar/catalis_devel/catalis-home.htm

Click on 'Trabajar con Catalis' ( = Work with Catalis); a full screen
window will open; then type the following:

Usuario (username): xx
Contraseña (password): test

Not everything is working now on that devel version; but it seems that
the major compatibility problems have been solved, and only minor
details remain.

BTW, the 'official' version currently in use (IE6 only) shows all the
implemented functionalities working as expected:

http://catalis.uns.edu.ar/catalis_pack/catalis-home.htm


OK, so what? icon_smile.gif

Catalis depends on Bireme's wxis. That creates some problems, as you
already know. Licence ($$), short dictionary keys, etc. If you read the
"Plans" section on the website:

http://inmabb.criba.edu.ar/catalis/catalis.php?p=planes

(written about a year ago), you'll see an item "¿Migración hacia
OpenIsis?". I've still done nothing on that direction, since this has
been mostly a one-person project, and the top priorities were to add
some needed functionalities, and to develop a satisfactory user
interface. And, fortunately, cataloguers using Catalis have shown
satisfaction with it. But the wxis->openisis challenge remains there, as
part of a bigger wishlist...

After a couple of months of 'mental vacation' away from Catalis, I'm
starting to work on it again. Feedback of any kind is appreciated.

Regards,


--
Fernando


----------------------------------------
Fernando J Gómez
----------------------------------------
Biblioteca Dr. Antonio Monteiro
Instituto de Matemática de Bahía Blanca
Conicet / Universidad Nacional del Sur
Av. Alem 1253
B8000CPB Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Tel. (54 291) 459 5116
----------------------------------------

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail
le: 12. 05. 2005 [16:03]
paul@malete.org
Klaus Ripke
Inscrit depuis: 31.12.1969
Interventions: 0
=A1Hola Fernando!

On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 02:19:54PM -0300, Fernando Gomez wrote:
> Well... I've been trying to do something like that for some time. icon_smile.gif
wow!
You're really pushing the limits!!
And my Moz did *NOT* crash!!!
(Yes, it's working with 1.7.8, released today).

> discussion on browser vs GUI.
me neither, we still will have both in ten years.

> question as an opportunity to share what I've done,
great! Where's the code?

> (written about a year ago), you'll see an item "=BFMigraci=F3n hacia=20
> OpenIsis?".
What would you need?

> been mostly a one-person project, and the top priorities were to add=20
> some needed functionalities, and to develop a satisfactory user=20
> interface. And, fortunately, cataloguers using Catalis have shown=20
> satisfaction with it. But the wxis->openisis challenge remains there, as=
=20
> part of a bigger wishlist...
well, in the end you need satisfied users,
but to have some fun, you also need some other
topics on the agenda ... so, once everything is working fine,=20
is the perfect time for a move, no?

saludos

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail
le: 13. 05. 2005 [19:32]
fgomez@criba.edu.ar
=?Windows-1252?Q?Fernando_J._G=F3mez?
Auteur du fil
Inscrit depuis: 31.12.1969
Interventions: 0
Klaus Ripke wrote:

> wow!
> You're really pushing the limits!!
> And my Moz did *NOT* crash!!!
> (Yes, it's working with 1.7.8, released today).

Thanks Klaus for the success report icon_smile.gif

There are still some Moz bugs that prevent the interface from working as
satisfactorily as in IE, and besides there are some non-standard IE
capabilities that are not available in Moz (but that the Moz community
has been considering to implement), such as true modal windows.

But... crashes? why would it crash? icon_smile.gif

>>question as an opportunity to share what I've done,
>
> great! Where's the code?

Short answer: if you ask me, I'll send it to you.

Long answer: important decisions regarding the code have been delayed
for quite a long time; help needed; details follow (I hope this is not
considered too off-topic here!)

The client-side code is naturally visible, while the server-side code
(some IsisScripts + PFTs), and the application as a whole, has been kept
away from the public just because of some laziness on my part and the
feeling that "this still needs to be cleaned up before seeing the light".

Although I've always wanted to make this project open source, some of
the important decisions were never made, and I feel *now* is the time to
finally deal with them. And I hope you may help me with this. Let's see:

1. Type of license.

I'm doing this work as an employee of CONICET (Consejo Nacional de
Investigaciones Científicas y Técnicas, Argentina), and the only
institutional requirement regarding my production is that the copyright
holders must be CONICET, the Mathematics Institute I work at, and myself.

The type of license I'd like to use should give lots of freedom, and
should preferably consist of a short, easy to understand text. It seems
that the MIT license solves this. I suppose most of you would recommend
using instead GPL or LGPL. Can you help me make that decision?

One particular aspect of licensing that I do not understand well is
this: Catalis --i.e, what I've created-- is a set of code written in
JavaScript + HTML + CSS + IsisScript + PFT + XML (+ probably some XSLT &
PHP). It includes portions of JS code from other sources, and of course
there is the dependence on wxis. What's exactly the scope of the license
I will use? I guess that

* it will only apply to the code I've written

* it must be "compatible" with the licenses of those included portions
of code

* wxis' license is not relevant (although clearly Catalis may not be
distributed together with wxis as part of the package)

Am I missing something?


2. Mechanism to manage the evolution of the code

For more than two years all this code has been developed in a rather
precarious fashion: no version control, no cvs; just write code, save
changes, test, hope for the best... you know what I mean. The
application has reached a level of complexity that forces me to change
this "methodology", specially if other people are willing to collaborate
with the development. Should I register the project in Sourceforge and
have immediate access to all those tools? Should I consider any other
alternatives?



>>(written about a year ago), you'll see an item "¿Migración hacia
>>OpenIsis?".
>
> What would you need?

I still have nothing specific to request. Just have this simplest idea
regarding the migration process:

1. revise all the .xis (IsisScript) files, and carefully distinguish
which parts are application logic, and which parts involve DB access.

2. The former parts should be rewritten in PHP

3. The latter parts should be analyzed in order to re-implement them
using openisis, instead of wxis

4. Rewrite the .pft files using PHP

Agree with this?

> well, in the end you need satisfied users,
> but to have some fun, you also need some other
> topics on the agenda ... so, once everything is working fine,
> is the perfect time for a move, no?

Yes. But.

The "everything is working fine" part hasn't come yet. Cataloguers
request one important function: authority control. I should mention that
I am supposed to be also cataloguing here --indeed, I am one of Catalis'
first users-- and I clearly see that adding authority control
functionality into Catalis is more urgent than rewriting its server-side
code.

Of course, I could also work a bit in each...

Thanks for reading all this. I'm sure you'll give me useful advice.

--
Fernando


----------------------------------------
Fernando J Gómez
----------------------------------------
Biblioteca Dr. Antonio Monteiro
Instituto de Matemática de Bahía Blanca
Conicet / Universidad Nacional del Sur
Av. Alem 1253
B8000CPB Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Tel. (54 291) 459 5116
----------------------------------------

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail
le: 13. 05. 2005 [21:24]
paul@malete.org
Klaus Ripke
Inscrit depuis: 31.12.1969
Interventions: 0
On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 08:32:12PM -0300, Fernando Gomez wrote:
> has been considering to implement), such as true modal windows.
ouch

I mean I know the point where it feels like
"dude, I need a modal window right now",
but there are people arguing that it's usually a
point of desperation and maybe no return.
Always good to avoid

> Short answer: if you ask me, I'll send it to you.
asking

> Long answer: important decisions regarding the code have been delayed
> for quite a long time; help needed; details follow (I hope this is not
sounds quite familiar

> feeling that "this still needs to be cleaned up before seeing the light".
you know the mantra "release early, release often" ...


> The type of license I'd like to use should give lots of freedom, and
> should preferably consist of a short, easy to understand text. It seems
> that the MIT license solves this. I suppose most of you would recommend
... like http://www.lua.org/license.html#5
really no fuzz

> using instead GPL or LGPL. Can you help me make that decision?
hmmm ..
not necessarily ...
difficult issue ....

If your intentions are just as above, then MIT will be fine.
You probably have been paid for your work, mas o menos,
and since it is an application rather than a framework or library,
you wouldn't expect too much derived work which would
be affected, or infected, by the license either way.

I recently created a couple of tools for Lua under MIT,
(http://luaforge.net/projects/sln/), because they are so
basic they should just improve the Lua environment for everybody,
not strings attached, and have more of that kind in the queue.

OTOH with OpenIsis 3rd generation, Selene,
I will switch from LGPL to GPL/dual license, like MySQL,
i.e. commercial options can be negotiated.


> One particular aspect of licensing that I do not understand well is
> this: Catalis --i.e, what I've created-- is a set of code written in
> JavaScript + HTML + CSS + IsisScript + PFT + XML (+ probably some XSLT &
> PHP). It includes portions of JS code from other sources, and of course
> there is the dependence on wxis. What's exactly the scope of the license
> I will use? I guess that
>
> * it will only apply to the code I've written
not exactly, it will apply to the complete work as is.
But obviously all code not written by you can be found
elsewhere under it's respective license, and if that is
more liberal, anybody might take it from that source.

> * it must be "compatible" with the licenses of those included portions
> of code
If, however, the original license is more restrictive,
e.g. GPL, than you should clearly put a disclaimer like
"contains code (c) Joe Hacker released under GPL" ...
GPL even requires the derived work to use GPL,
so would have to separate your code clearly as
"not derived, but add-on".
After all, that's what this lengthy document is all about.

Based on MIT stuff, you can do whatever you want
(including put it under GPL).

> * wxis' license is not relevant (although clearly Catalis may not be
> distributed together with wxis as part of the package)
right

> Am I missing something?
nope

> with the development. Should I register the project in Sourceforge and
> have immediate access to all those tools?
Why not?
Get yourself a username, I'll add you to ISIS developers.

> Should I consider any other alternatives?
Savanah?
A locally setup CVS can be more or less convenient,
depending on where you work.

> Agree with this?
sounds great!

> first users-- and I clearly see that adding authority control
> functionality into Catalis is more urgent than rewriting its server-side
I see ... that's quite heavy ...



saludos

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail
le: 16. 05. 2005 [22:40]
fgomez@criba.edu.ar
=?Windows-1252?Q?Fernando_J._G=F3mez?
Auteur du fil
Inscrit depuis: 31.12.1969
Interventions: 0
Hola!

First of all, a clarification. Braulio said:

> You wanted Klaus's advice but I liked to contribute
> my opinion too. Hope I can be of some help...

Of course, your opinions are welcome! icon_smile.gif

Every time I say "your help", "you'll give useful advice", etc, I'm
thinking about all the people on the list. Of course, I expected some
contributions from the most active members here, besides Klaus himself:
from Braulio, and maybe also from Roger, who has been developing
software closely related to Catalis (I'm sure we have been both trying
to solve the same or very similar problems...)

Braulio said:

> There is not such thing as MIT licence.

Well, I was referring to this one:

http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php

which indeed appears under the name of "The MIT License". So... could
you please explain?

> I recommend BSD modified (compatible with GPL).

Thanks, I'll have to look at it more closely.

Other Braulio's suggestions --use some advanced software engineering,
use PHP 5 + classes, database abstraction-- seem, generally speaking, a
bit too "advanced" for myself; my programming skills are somewhat
limited, and although I hope to devote time to improve those skills, it
seems that Catalis is now at the point where those more advanced
approaches could start coming from outside...

Which takes me again to the code and its release...; it'll be formally
ready soon, I promise icon_smile.gif Meanwhile, as I said before, if someone wants
to see it, just ask me.

Klaus: thanks for clarifying the licensing related questions.

I've started playing again with Malete, after... well, after a lot of
time. Learning it again, and hoping that this time is *the* time. While
I play, I'll be translating some documents --first one: Query.txt-- and
taking note of anything that is not clear (to me).

If there are already translations into Spanish of the Malete docs,
please tell me so.

Saludos.


--
Fernando


----------------------------------------
Fernando J Gómez
----------------------------------------
Biblioteca Dr. Antonio Monteiro
Instituto de Matemática de Bahía Blanca
Conicet / Universidad Nacional del Sur
Av. Alem 1253
B8000CPB Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Tel. (54 291) 459 5116
----------------------------------------

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail
le: 17. 05. 2005 [12:09]
braulio
Braulio Solano Rojas
Inscrit depuis: 16.05.2008
Interventions: 2
Hola.

Fernando Gomez dijo:
> Braulio said:
>
> > There is not such thing as MIT licence.
>
> Well, I was referring to this one:
>
> http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php
>
> which indeed appears under the name of "The MIT License". So... could
> you please explain?

Read this:
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/license-list.html

> > I recommend BSD modified (compatible with GPL).
>
> Thanks, I'll have to look at it more closely.

Read this:
http://63.249.85.132/open_source_license.htm

> Other Braulio's suggestions --use some advanced software engineering,
> use PHP 5 + classes, database abstraction-- seem, generally speaking, a
> bit too "advanced" for myself; my programming skills are somewhat
> limited, and although I hope to devote time to improve those skills, it
> seems that Catalis is now at the point where those more advanced
> approaches could start coming from outside...

Advanced = easy (since it helps to a better concept, a better mind map).

> I've started playing again with Malete, after... well, after a lot of
> time. Learning it again, and hoping that this time is *the* time. While
> I play, I'll be translating some documents --first one: Query.txt-- and
> taking note of anything that is not clear (to me).
>
> If there are already translations into Spanish of the Malete docs,
> please tell me so.

I don't know who has some translation, but if you do some please share it.
icon_wink.gif

Best regards,

B.

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